wow. i stop reading comments, and posting, and the whole thing goes to hell.
captain stinko, not a fixie pixie: clean it up or take a hike, please?
it was weird enough following the whole canada is heaven thing, but petty bickering and mud-tossing reinforces the correctness of just reading the comic–which i LOVE, by the way, rick. you’re the story man, no one else. please just continue to do as you wish.
and the lot of you, have at it again. whatever.
The whole comments section went to hell in a handbasket long ago, and nobody cares to admit that fact – that’s why they resort to personal attacks, such as yours.
Is that why you’ve chosen to hide your comment history — so no one can see your own past contributions to the mess, under whatever previous name(s) you used?
yes, apparently so, widsith. perhaps he’ll eventually get bored here, and go torment somewhere else. i used to enjoy reading and commenting here, but the strip has gotten so popular, it seems, that the sheer volume of new readers results in the addition of the requisite bad apples, who LOVE to post their b.s.
kim,
i want to sincerely apologize to you; i should watch my language. i too love reading the strip and just got upset. i think what Rick does is great, and i have become very attached to all at the Kickstand through his art and story writing (with help from Brian, right? its Brian i think? ah my memory is too young to do this to me). I also greatly appreciate the fact that he manages to get a new strip up every day while having another job. therefore, when he came under attack i just got really defensive. i will refrain from profanity from now on, cross my heart, because i dont want to offend anyone or hinder their enjoyment of this comic. im sorry please forgive.
Hope the Kickstand (and all involved) have better luck than my Grandfather… at 50 he had a tree smash his pickup. A few years later, he was struck by bark when a tree was hit by lightning. And at 84, he had a tree go through his roof, and landed squarely on his bed (unoccupied). He’s still kicking, but he ain’t no tree hugger.
Yehuda will always survive, just like those who speak the truth about the comments section. That is why Yehuda will survive, the Kickstand won’t, and I will return to make the sex maniacs, political pundits, and nagging whiners here keep their mouth shut.
Someone was asking about professional Engineers making a living in the bicycle business. A local example here in the Toronto area is True North Cycles. An excerpt from:
“Hugh graduated with a degree in Mechanical Engineering from Queen’s University (Kingston, Ontario, Canada), where he built and rode a number of prototypes of mountain bike frames. Upon graduation, Hugh was underwhelmed by the typical engineering jobs available in the labour market. He was fascinated with bicycle manufacturing, and excited about the possibility of dedicating his engineering skills and attention-to-detail to bicycle frame building. Hugh merged his passions for bicycles, engineering, and craftsmanship into what is True North Cycles.”
I’m not sure what point you’re making: that’s someone who has a degree in engineering joining the bicycle business. There are many framebuilders and many other very successful people in the bike business who don’t have degrees in engineering.
Of course someone who may or may not have been a professional engineer at some point can get (or make) a job in the bicycle business. But it’s not a prerequisite and it doesn’t necessarily make them better at some jobs than someone who’s been a professional accountant or professional marketeer joining the bicycle business.
Not really making any point. Someone was dumping on the bicycle business and saying that it didn’t pay more than a Macdonalds wage. This was in connection with Thistle, a professional engineer.
I’m not saying that everyone who works in the business makes a six-figure income. But here is someone like Thistle, a professional engineer, who seems to be doing quite well. Perhaps there is yet hope for Thistle.
Perhaps I should make a point! It is my belief that “bicycle mechanic” should be an apprenticable trade. Part of the Ministry of Education’s apprenticeship system so that there would be formal certification of bicycle mechanics.
Right now anyone can CALL themselves a bicycle mechanic, no matter how little training or experience they have. This puts downward pressure on wages.
Professional engineeers have to have professional training and certification before they can build bridges. That is one reason why they can command such high pay.
I believe that bicycle mechanics should be the same way – and this level of professionalism will help them achieve better pay.
obviously people who actually designing bicycle frames are going to be engineers. the cervelo guys would have been a way more obvious example. people were talking about the bicycle shop business not being extremely profitable. there’s clearly a difference.
and whatever you “believe” that bicycle mechanics should be paid has nothing to do with any of this. if bicycle mechanics were paid as much as professional engineers, far fewer people would get their bikes professionally fixed, because most people don’t attach that much value to bicycles. and bike shops would be even less profitable.
”People were talking about the bicycle shop business not being extremely profitable.”
It’s funny because the owner of one of the local bike shops drives a brand new Audi TT, has at least 15 employees and plans to open a new shop, if it’s not profitable I don’t know what it is! They don’t build frames, their service isn’t that good (every time I order parts from them I either don’t get everything or it takes an eternity to receive everything… I went there to change the bottom bracket on one of my bikes, the guy didn’t manage to screw on the new one, I thought that maybe I had an italian BB [old Miele bike], ordered one, went back and the other mecanic couldn’t screw it on, then he realised that I have a regular BB and that the other mecanic just didn’t try hard enough, I had to pay for the BB I ordered, the new one they put on and a little bit of shop time, I’m never going back!) yet, I know some people make a living by working there…
No, people were talking about folks who WORK in bike shops making peanuts. As to people “making a living by working there”, I suppose that depends on your definition of “living”.
Well, you see, it’s not just competence that matters. If that was the case, a lot of decent mechanics would be rolling in $. There’s also the business element to the game – if you can sell your business the right way, you can get away with the somewhat sub-standard workmanship you described in your post.
Except they’re not building bridges, they’re repairing bicycles. Some industries command higher salaries than others. This is not meant as a disrespect to the bicycle industry in any way, but to become a proficient bicycle mechanic does not require years of postgraduate training. I’m not sure that is support the idea of artificially inflating the costs of bicycle repair by guilding the industry, nor do I think it would help the industry. I already do 85% of my bicycle repair on my own because it isn’t rocket science. The additional 15% is only because I do not own the proper tools and it is more cost effective for me to pay a professional who does. If a wheel truing or bottom bracket replacing were artificially inflated into the hundreds of dollars range to pay mechanics wages comparable to motor vehicle mechanics, I’d just go out and buy a truing stand and crank tools.
SDMSS – “This is not meant as a disrespect to the bicycle industry in any way, but to become a proficient bicycle mechanic does not require years of postgraduate training.”
This is true. A great bike mechanic will typically share the same apptitude as other skilled mechanics and engineers in other industries that pay higher wages.
A great bike mechanic still needs to learn or be trained in specific skills and stay on top of the industry changes.
Speaking as someone who is pretty good at mechanic-ing bicycles (and who did work in a shop as a wee lad), and someone who also has an engineering degree (but NOT a P.E. certification) and who has friends who have passed P.E. certification, I think it is safe to say that there is a world of difference in what it takes to become a professional engineer, and what it takes to become a competent bicycle mechanic.
One major appeal of bicycles, for me at least, is that their maintenance and repair is not rocket science, yet they are still an incredibly practical and efficient means of transportation. We get some minor benefits from metallurgy and machining (7, 8, 9, 11 and 14-speed IGHs, that’s something; and Kevlar tires FTW) but otherwise, a plain old steel framed bike does very well.
Not all professional engineers build bridges. If Thistle is a mechanical engineer, she’s far more likely to have worked on HVAC/R or plumbing systems. There’s a (slim) chance she worked in the power or manufacturing industries. Mechanical engineers would only get involved with drawbridges, unless asked to use storm drainage expertise to specify scuppers and drains to keep a bridge from flooding.
Someone wrote:
“…if bicycle mechanics were paid as much as professional engineers…”
Kevin’s comment:
I don’t think that is what I wrote. I note that apprenticable trades on the Ministry of Education’s website run the gamut from automobile mechanic to chef to stonemason. In my opinion, bike mechanics wages should be comparable to those trades. Becoming an apprenticable trade would be a good way to start, as well as ensuring a high level of quality in this industry.
Kev, you haven’t made your point yet. Nowhere on the True North Cycles webpage do I see any indication that Hugh is independently supporting a family of 3, even temporarily. Besides, it seems this Hugh fellow is the independent owner of a custom bicycle business; not an employee at a suburban Cleveland local bike shop, or a potential partial owner of a suburban Cleveland local bike shop. If we’re going to measure the fictional Thistle’s potential wage or income from the Kickstand IT IS best to compare it to the wages paid by McDonalds. That’s just how it is.
Kev never makes a point. That’s part of his charm. But at least he ain’t runnin’ off at the mouth* about how his motorized Flying Pigeon replica is the greatest thing since sex.
No, that would be Wilma, my e-assisted LWB recumbent made from trashed BSO MTB and an electric scooter. My energy cost is something like $0.014/M (varies from $0.02 to $0.01 but the average is $0.014) When I can get the solar cells for the sunshade the cost/mile will be even lower. As a comparison using local gas costs my old Hyndai was $0.09 and a new Prius is $0.052.
I believe she is an electrical engineer. I work with both mechanical and electrical engineers, there is HUGE difference. I don’t think electrical would translate to framebuilding.
As a former member of the bike industry, I can vouch that overall wages are low. Some owners do well, most do not – regardless of their formal education. Location, market, real estate, and other overhead as well as market demographics and local cultre/psychographics play far more influence on store success.
Most employees don’t get benefits and earn lower than average wages. The industy does seem to attract those who have a passion for cycling more thana passion for wealth.
Don’t kid yourselves about the level of engineering and skill that goes into bicycles. The bike industry has pioneered many technologies and has been early adopters of of others. It does in fact use what you would call “rocket science”. Finite element analysis was used in the bike biz before it was used in the auto industry. The bike biz pushed the steel industry long before anyone else needed high strength alloys. The bik biz pushed composite materials and titanium into the mainstream – Preston Sandusky (formerly) of Kestrel is a rocket scientist. The Wright brothers were bike mechanics before they were aviation pioneers. Yeah, it’s not rocket science, it harder than that. Bikes can be incredibly simple and efficient machines but they all have roots in high technology.
I agree – A small note regarding skills … I work for nothing at a charity bike shop. I have been ‘skilled fitting’ since 1966, Fixing Electronics since 1968 and other jobs included along the way. My colleague has been maintaining jet engines since the 1950s and at 75 is still doing it. We go to the shop primarily for the joy. We also see ourselves as doing a little something to help the cause of World Peace. However, many of the other volunteers think that around 2 hours a month entitles them to take stock items and tools for their own use. The stock is largely donated but some stuff is bought, at the market price, but they still help themselves. This is ‘cheap transport’ at it’s best and worst.
Yes and no on the bicycle-rocket-science. There’s all that high-tech stuff on the margins, but it is not mainstream. I’ve ridden a few dozen miles on a titanium bike (a friend’s Spectrum), it was nice, nicer than my old steel 531 frame, but not tons nicer, just somewhat nicer.
There’s plenty of older bikes that predate Titanium (early 70s, I was racing at the time) and use of finite-elements-analysis. Their biggest innovation was use of good alloy steel (Reynolds 531). One bike I rescued from the trash (Raleigh 3-speed) is surely built from plain steel, and it has a fine ride.
And, additionally, I did say, repaired and maintained, which is not quite the same as designing them.
“Most employees don’t get benefits”… depends on what you mean by benefits (in the UK, this tends to mean _anything_ above the money you’re paid) – I think over here the trade discounts for employees are what keeps a lot of people working in the bike industry.
I don’t like this kind of comic writing. Nothing really interesting or funny happens for days, no fun… Yeah, the storyline develops, but this is not supposed to be a feature film script or something like that…
Give me back the old Yehuda strip style, where one strip was a story in its own.
longest night in cartoon history. what is this freakin 24? one frame for each minute in the day? this day at teh KS gonna last a year in monitor time? yehuda, joseph and mary, sister sprocket, the shakers and now……. an act o’ god. At least that velo paint devil moved on. which is where I am going…soon. ba-bye.
Stoker – bye bye. Glad to see a moaner go…
Those who enjoy the strip simply ENJOY it. We don’t try to make Rick draw what we want. We love his art and the bike-related stuff he includes. Just because it is a ‘comic’ doesn’t mean it needs to be ‘Dennis the Menace’
Not that I am comparing this strip to Peanuts, but you have to wonder what Charles Schulz would have done with real time feedback. I just added the comments ID “comment_” to adthwart for Chrome. Now I get to enjoy the strip w/o conspiracy theories, Rick bashing and zombies who think this is reality. It’s a comic strip people.
Creaking cranks are usually just the nut needing to be tightened, easy fix. I have no idea how to fix a creaky bottom bracket, sounds like you need a new frame…
This is one of the most poorly crafted segues I’ve ever read. Really horrible stuff.
So horrible was the segue that I actually clicked the link and read what the Good Utility Cyclist had to say on ‘creaking cranks’.
I am pleased to report back that David Hembrow, like all good utility cyclists, is so woefully ignorant about the mechanical performance of his bicycle that he was flumoxed utterly by the cause of his creaking crank, a heretofore universal omen of a worn or misadjusted bottom bracket.
When one begins to struggle with the complexities involved in differentiating one’s bottom from one’s bottom bracket, it may be time to reassess your career path as a renowned bicycle commentator.
More than anything, I’m genuinely surprised that Kevin Love didn’t take full advantage of Hembrow’s mechanical woes to launch a diatribe against ’boutique bottom brackets’ like Hollowtech and Ultra-torque and make an impassioned defence of the Ashtabula cranks of yesteryear, known for their supple bendy-ness, their asinine installation regimine, and tedious adjustment protocols. However, condemning boutique out-board bottom brackets would mean admitting Hembrow is wrong in specing his utility bicycle, and that’s something Kevin Love would never do.
Being a cheritable soul, I’ll give Kevin Love a convenient seque to safety: Kevin, your Pashley employs a three-piece bottom bracket and crank set-up. There, you’ve got a Pashley reference, now run with it!
No so Mongo. The real problem that KLove made earlier (god am I really agreeing with him?) is that anyone without training or certification can claim to be a bike mechanic.
Had a tree smash through my house when I was a kid and it crushed my bed. I’d be upset, but I had just gotten a new bike and that was more important to me at age 11. I went for a ride and enjoyed the day.
Yes, but that strip indicates it’s going to happen sooner or later. Every time Yehuda is involved in an accident, we can’t help but wonder if *this* is the one where he loses his arm. Personally, I think it will be a complication (that may not show up for years) from the injury to his arm that he sustained in the snowplow incident.
Well, at least Captinstinko chose an appropriate name. I think it is cool that most of us (including Rick!) are secure enough to go on side topics that the strips bring up. Whether we hate or love the current strip, story line, we are all here. Good or bad, there is something that brings us back day after day. For that, I’m grateful.
PS. I missed where Rick abandoned the strip…. I see a man needing a break. I bet my job is a helluva lot easier, and probably pays better, and I take vacations…. not bragging, jus’ saying.
I don’t know about the pay rate of a Bicycle mechanic but from my last tune up, their labor rates are up there with Auto Mechanics and Computer technicians.
You’re being charged a shop rate that covers the cost of tools, labour, maintenance, rent, etc. A mechanic’s pay scale depends largely on their experience, but typically ranges from $10-$15 in Ontario, Canada.
Now I am assuming the the tree fell… but is there a chance it was taken away by the wind? If thats the case add some bikes with anemometer and a cow and you have you self a nice blockbuster.
I agree. It is sad, but it seems that these type of forums do need to be monitore, Most of the commentators here are sensitive and perceptive readers who clearly enjoy yhr strip and enjoy commenting in an intelligent, inciteful, or humorous way, but unfortunately it takes only a few mean spirited people to use the forum to attack others. Today is pretty bad, Rick, but I’ve read some very nasty, tasteless, comments that attack loyal and thoughtful readers for a while now. And some of the political commentary is really nasty—based in ignorance and quitw hateful. But these comments usually come from the same three of four commentors. It might be pretty easy to weed them out, though I don’t know how you would do that via computer. I usually scan the comments and read only the ones that provide interesting information on cycling and bicyicles—and there are quite a few good ones. But like evrything else in our culture, the hate-mongers, fear-mongers and other ignorance drenched types need to spit their venom. A shame to give in to them, though, when I’ve seen so much that is positive and informative here as well.
Living free has a price that I’m ready to pay daily.
By shutting the comments down you’ll punish the good and the less good the same. We’re mostly having fun extending, paraphrasing and deviating the strip here, you know. Interesting people and information are 90% of what can be found in the comments. Throw that away for the sake of one or two occasional hyperactive attention seeker, really?
Agreed. But to make sure these few don’t come back, I’d be forced to spend time reading through comments and monitoring feedback; don’t have time to do that. Maybe I’ll try banning them and see if that works.
While it isn’t as bad as eliminating the comments altogether, I’m not fond of places that ban people either. The profanity and sexual references some people use here are highly offensive to me, but I’m glad to say I’ve never used the “Flag” button on any comment, because I believe in everyone having their say, no matter how offensive I find it to be.
That’s much better than banning or moderation, since “ignore” gives each reader the choice of whether to see someone else’s comments or not, but doesn’t affect what anyone else sees. The forum software may not offer that option, though. I’m sure Rick is doing the best he can with whatever options are available in js-kit.
It seems two poster names in particular represent most of the problem. It might be worth doing a log by source IP and shutting them down that way. If they were motivated enough to maneuver around that, a pattern would soon enough develop.
I’d really hate to see the comments disappear. It takes only a few seconds each day to read the strips but the comments keep me coming back here multiple times per day.
Hear, hear Rick. There’s only one true comment that should follow a comic strip…
…and it’s laughter. Now that’s genuine.
That said, if you are interested in gathering reader feedback data, may I suggest substituting the comments section with a simple “thumbs-up”/”thumbs-down” button for each strip? This would give a good, general idea as to the popularity of various subplots and punch lines.
You don’t want to read the comments, so rather than just not reading them, your solution is to ask for them to be shut down so that those of us who *do* want to read them won’t be able to do so. Yeah, that seems fair.
Rick- you write great strip (for little or no money) and it’s really a shame some lunkheads have to come on here and try to be the “cool kids”… Don’t stop writing the strip, but if I were you I’d shut the comments down… maybe one of the cool kids can start a thread over at bike forums…
There is a big difference between responsible free expression of ideas and opinions and irresponsible, abusive attacks. I don’t think that a comments page for a bicycle comic should be allowed to deteriorate into serving the latter purpose. Read back over the comments made over th past few weeks (in particuclar the vicious racist attacks on Obama); is this the kind of expression for which the Yehuda Moon staff wishes to provide a sounding board? I think not. So ther is a real problem here.
I don’t recall any mention whatsoever of Obamarx’s race, other than by those of his apologists who threw the race card; said apologists being rhetorically bankrupt.
And while we’re talking politics-you brought it up, ranyu, but this goes for you too, Rick-I’m damned if I see what an oil spill in 2010 has to do with a President who served from 1985 to 1983, other than as a purely partisan cheapshot. We’re talking what?-seventeen years, three presidents, almost four and a half terms (the current one only seems like it’s already been eight years). If you want to keep politics out of the forum, either keep it out of the strip or shut down the forum. Makes no difference to me.
Mongo, idiots like you who legitimize (and therefore promote) carrying out heated poltical debates in a comic strip’s comment section ARE the problem to start with.
I can’t recall the last time I ever saw anyone simply state that they “…really enjoyed laughing at today’s strip, Rick!”
WV, I wouldn’t be in such an all-fired poor mood at the others if it wasn’t for the fact that 90% of these gits have ruined every one of my trips to the comments section of this strip – for the last 3 months. One day of payback time isn’t going to hurt ‘em; and a bit of harmless revenge is a sweet thing.
In Exactly what invasion of the body snatchers were you abducted Mongo? When did you lose your humanity and become a Pod Person extaordinaire? Was it the invasion of the 50s, 80s, or as recent as this past decade? When did the “real” Mongo disappear only to be replaced by a crackling oozing Pod? Crackle ooze oooze.
As I wrote above – It is a look at a possible future where the (old)Yehuda, with only one arm on his VanSweringen, easily catches the speeding roadie, Joe, who has gone so fast he traveled forwards in time (Faster than light does that you know?)
Take Cover!!!!
So was it his arm or the shop that is lost this time?
wow. i stop reading comments, and posting, and the whole thing goes to hell.
captain stinko, not a fixie pixie: clean it up or take a hike, please?
it was weird enough following the whole canada is heaven thing, but petty bickering and mud-tossing reinforces the correctness of just reading the comic–which i LOVE, by the way, rick. you’re the story man, no one else. please just continue to do as you wish.
and the lot of you, have at it again. whatever.
The whole comments section went to hell in a handbasket long ago, and nobody cares to admit that fact – that’s why they resort to personal attacks, such as yours.
-Stinko
Is that why you’ve chosen to hide your comment history — so no one can see your own past contributions to the mess, under whatever previous name(s) you used?
yes, apparently so, widsith. perhaps he’ll eventually get bored here, and go torment somewhere else. i used to enjoy reading and commenting here, but the strip has gotten so popular, it seems, that the sheer volume of new readers results in the addition of the requisite bad apples, who LOVE to post their b.s.
Hiding your inferiority by making personal attacks, eh?
-Stinko
At least I’m willing to stand behind my words, rather than hiding them from public view like a coward.
Ok, here’s a novelty for you then:
I believe the Kickstand has been totaled. I’ll stand behind those words.
If the next strip is contrary to this statement, I’ll pack my bags and giddyap.
-Stinko
It’s also cowardly to make such an offer when you already have “inside information.”
kim,
please forgive.
i want to sincerely apologize to you; i should watch my language. i too love reading the strip and just got upset. i think what Rick does is great, and i have become very attached to all at the Kickstand through his art and story writing (with help from Brian, right? its Brian i think? ah my memory is too young to do this to me). I also greatly appreciate the fact that he manages to get a new strip up every day while having another job. therefore, when he came under attack i just got really defensive. i will refrain from profanity from now on, cross my heart, because i dont want to offend anyone or hinder their enjoyment of this comic. im sorry
R.I.P. Yehuda.
Now all you Advocacy & Safety nags and sex-crazed habit-chasers can go ruin some other online comment section.
-Capt’n Stink-o
Okaaayyy, you liked your own post there?
You bet, buster. Try it sometime. Shameless self-promotion feels wonderful.
“Shameless self-promotion feels wonderful.”
…and looks cretinous.
If only there was an “Ignore” button.
: P
Judging by the “likes” on our respective posts, the only cretin is you. Touché.
-Stinko
Which ones do you suggest?
Ummm, maybe a bike ride will help change your negative attitude…
Puritan prude!
Comment sections are ruined by constant spam, not people having different points of view.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m off to make p3niss exponent greatness!
Constant spam? I don’t see anyone selling fake Patrick Philippe watches.
-Stinko
Hope the Kickstand (and all involved) have better luck than my Grandfather… at 50 he had a tree smash his pickup. A few years later, he was struck by bark when a tree was hit by lightning. And at 84, he had a tree go through his roof, and landed squarely on his bed (unoccupied). He’s still kicking, but he ain’t no tree hugger.
Maybe the trees are mad at him for pissing on one of their friends? ROFL..tell him or help him to plant a tree and shake the bad ju-ju?
Trees like being pissed on. Fertilizer innit.
The Ents are rising up!
After Sonny Bono? and someone else famous died while skiing off course, a joke went around…
“Stop cutting us down, or more celebrities will die. –The trees”.
That he’s not a tree hugger is understandable but why are the tree trying so hard to hug him is a mystery.
Wish there was DISLIKE button ;(
I’ve often wished the same thing.
Is this where Y loses his arm?
Not to a car, but to some vegitation.
Hey, why not? This strip hasn’t been the same since Rick abandoned it the second time around.
fuck off dude. go spread your stench elsewhere.
If you don’t like it, don’t read it. If you can’t offer constructive and helpful comments, then put a sock in it.
All right, all right. So the kickstand is totaled.
-Stinko
Please don’t kill Yehuda! I am hanging on to the romance possible triangle here…i can only handle so many gear ratios and such…
Yehuda will always survive, just like those who speak the truth about the comments section. That is why Yehuda will survive, the Kickstand won’t, and I will return to make the sex maniacs, political pundits, and nagging whiners here keep their mouth shut.
This is a comic strip, for god’s sake.
-Stinko
Yes, because everyone knows telling someone to shut up on the Internet makes a BIG difference.
Continue your crusade, Stinko… at least it keeps you busy.
: P
I think the tree has crashed through the roof of the Kickstand. At least I hope that is the worst thing that could happen. :(
But it was “wump”. Not “wump, crunch”.
Unless the Kickstand is made of Play-Do.
Someone was asking about professional Engineers making a living in the bicycle business. A local example here in the Toronto area is True North Cycles. An excerpt from:
http://www.truenorthcycles.com/about/
“Hugh graduated with a degree in Mechanical Engineering from Queen’s University (Kingston, Ontario, Canada), where he built and rode a number of prototypes of mountain bike frames. Upon graduation, Hugh was underwhelmed by the typical engineering jobs available in the labour market. He was fascinated with bicycle manufacturing, and excited about the possibility of dedicating his engineering skills and attention-to-detail to bicycle frame building. Hugh merged his passions for bicycles, engineering, and craftsmanship into what is True North Cycles.”
I’m not sure what point you’re making: that’s someone who has a degree in engineering joining the bicycle business. There are many framebuilders and many other very successful people in the bike business who don’t have degrees in engineering.
Of course someone who may or may not have been a professional engineer at some point can get (or make) a job in the bicycle business. But it’s not a prerequisite and it doesn’t necessarily make them better at some jobs than someone who’s been a professional accountant or professional marketeer joining the bicycle business.
: P
Not really making any point. Someone was dumping on the bicycle business and saying that it didn’t pay more than a Macdonalds wage. This was in connection with Thistle, a professional engineer.
I’m not saying that everyone who works in the business makes a six-figure income. But here is someone like Thistle, a professional engineer, who seems to be doing quite well. Perhaps there is yet hope for Thistle.
Perhaps I should make a point! It is my belief that “bicycle mechanic” should be an apprenticable trade. Part of the Ministry of Education’s apprenticeship system so that there would be formal certification of bicycle mechanics.
Right now anyone can CALL themselves a bicycle mechanic, no matter how little training or experience they have. This puts downward pressure on wages.
Professional engineeers have to have professional training and certification before they can build bridges. That is one reason why they can command such high pay.
I believe that bicycle mechanics should be the same way – and this level of professionalism will help them achieve better pay.
obviously people who actually designing bicycle frames are going to be engineers. the cervelo guys would have been a way more obvious example. people were talking about the bicycle shop business not being extremely profitable. there’s clearly a difference.
and whatever you “believe” that bicycle mechanics should be paid has nothing to do with any of this. if bicycle mechanics were paid as much as professional engineers, far fewer people would get their bikes professionally fixed, because most people don’t attach that much value to bicycles. and bike shops would be even less profitable.
”People were talking about the bicycle shop business not being extremely profitable.”
It’s funny because the owner of one of the local bike shops drives a brand new Audi TT, has at least 15 employees and plans to open a new shop, if it’s not profitable I don’t know what it is! They don’t build frames, their service isn’t that good (every time I order parts from them I either don’t get everything or it takes an eternity to receive everything… I went there to change the bottom bracket on one of my bikes, the guy didn’t manage to screw on the new one, I thought that maybe I had an italian BB [old Miele bike], ordered one, went back and the other mecanic couldn’t screw it on, then he realised that I have a regular BB and that the other mecanic just didn’t try hard enough, I had to pay for the BB I ordered, the new one they put on and a little bit of shop time, I’m never going back!) yet, I know some people make a living by working there…
No, people were talking about folks who WORK in bike shops making peanuts. As to people “making a living by working there”, I suppose that depends on your definition of “living”.
Well, you see, it’s not just competence that matters. If that was the case, a lot of decent mechanics would be rolling in $. There’s also the business element to the game – if you can sell your business the right way, you can get away with the somewhat sub-standard workmanship you described in your post.
Except they’re not building bridges, they’re repairing bicycles. Some industries command higher salaries than others. This is not meant as a disrespect to the bicycle industry in any way, but to become a proficient bicycle mechanic does not require years of postgraduate training. I’m not sure that is support the idea of artificially inflating the costs of bicycle repair by guilding the industry, nor do I think it would help the industry. I already do 85% of my bicycle repair on my own because it isn’t rocket science. The additional 15% is only because I do not own the proper tools and it is more cost effective for me to pay a professional who does. If a wheel truing or bottom bracket replacing were artificially inflated into the hundreds of dollars range to pay mechanics wages comparable to motor vehicle mechanics, I’d just go out and buy a truing stand and crank tools.
SDMSS – “This is not meant as a disrespect to the bicycle industry in any way, but to become a proficient bicycle mechanic does not require years of postgraduate training.”
This is true. A great bike mechanic will typically share the same apptitude as other skilled mechanics and engineers in other industries that pay higher wages.
A great bike mechanic still needs to learn or be trained in specific skills and stay on top of the industry changes.
Speaking as someone who is pretty good at mechanic-ing bicycles (and who did work in a shop as a wee lad), and someone who also has an engineering degree (but NOT a P.E. certification) and who has friends who have passed P.E. certification, I think it is safe to say that there is a world of difference in what it takes to become a professional engineer, and what it takes to become a competent bicycle mechanic.
One major appeal of bicycles, for me at least, is that their maintenance and repair is not rocket science, yet they are still an incredibly practical and efficient means of transportation. We get some minor benefits from metallurgy and machining (7, 8, 9, 11 and 14-speed IGHs, that’s something; and Kevlar tires FTW) but otherwise, a plain old steel framed bike does very well.
Oh yeah, LED lighting, don’t forget that
.
Not all professional engineers build bridges. If Thistle is a mechanical engineer, she’s far more likely to have worked on HVAC/R or plumbing systems. There’s a (slim) chance she worked in the power or manufacturing industries. Mechanical engineers would only get involved with drawbridges, unless asked to use storm drainage expertise to specify scuppers and drains to keep a bridge from flooding.
Someone wrote:
“…if bicycle mechanics were paid as much as professional engineers…”
Kevin’s comment:
I don’t think that is what I wrote. I note that apprenticable trades on the Ministry of Education’s website run the gamut from automobile mechanic to chef to stonemason. In my opinion, bike mechanics wages should be comparable to those trades. Becoming an apprenticable trade would be a good way to start, as well as ensuring a high level of quality in this industry.
well then, that has nothing to do with anything that was being talked about that led to you making whatever point you were trying to make.
Kev, you haven’t made your point yet. Nowhere on the True North Cycles webpage do I see any indication that Hugh is independently supporting a family of 3, even temporarily. Besides, it seems this Hugh fellow is the independent owner of a custom bicycle business; not an employee at a suburban Cleveland local bike shop, or a potential partial owner of a suburban Cleveland local bike shop. If we’re going to measure the fictional Thistle’s potential wage or income from the Kickstand IT IS best to compare it to the wages paid by McDonalds. That’s just how it is.
Kev never makes a point. That’s part of his charm. But at least he ain’t runnin’ off at the mouth* about how his motorized Flying Pigeon replica is the greatest thing since sex.
*yet
No, that would be Wilma, my e-assisted LWB recumbent made from trashed BSO MTB and an electric scooter. My energy cost is something like $0.014/M (varies from $0.02 to $0.01 but the average is $0.014) When I can get the solar cells for the sunshade the cost/mile will be even lower. As a comparison using local gas costs my old Hyndai was $0.09 and a new Prius is $0.052.
I believe she is an electrical engineer. I work with both mechanical and electrical engineers, there is HUGE difference. I don’t think electrical would translate to framebuilding.
Wasn’t “dumping” on anything, dingus. Simply pointing out that your typical wrench working for your typical shop don’t make squat.
As a former member of the bike industry, I can vouch that overall wages are low. Some owners do well, most do not – regardless of their formal education. Location, market, real estate, and other overhead as well as market demographics and local cultre/psychographics play far more influence on store success.
Most employees don’t get benefits and earn lower than average wages. The industy does seem to attract those who have a passion for cycling more thana passion for wealth.
Don’t kid yourselves about the level of engineering and skill that goes into bicycles. The bike industry has pioneered many technologies and has been early adopters of of others. It does in fact use what you would call “rocket science”. Finite element analysis was used in the bike biz before it was used in the auto industry. The bike biz pushed the steel industry long before anyone else needed high strength alloys. The bik biz pushed composite materials and titanium into the mainstream – Preston Sandusky (formerly) of Kestrel is a rocket scientist. The Wright brothers were bike mechanics before they were aviation pioneers. Yeah, it’s not rocket science, it harder than that. Bikes can be incredibly simple and efficient machines but they all have roots in high technology.
20 posts in a row – all of it an argument over the financial situation of cycle shops – in the comments section of a comic strip.
Revolting.
I agree – A small note regarding skills … I work for nothing at a charity bike shop. I have been ‘skilled fitting’ since 1966, Fixing Electronics since 1968 and other jobs included along the way. My colleague has been maintaining jet engines since the 1950s and at 75 is still doing it. We go to the shop primarily for the joy. We also see ourselves as doing a little something to help the cause of World Peace. However, many of the other volunteers think that around 2 hours a month entitles them to take stock items and tools for their own use. The stock is largely donated but some stuff is bought, at the market price, but they still help themselves. This is ‘cheap transport’ at it’s best and worst.
Yes and no on the bicycle-rocket-science. There’s all that high-tech stuff on the margins, but it is not mainstream. I’ve ridden a few dozen miles on a titanium bike (a friend’s Spectrum), it was nice, nicer than my old steel 531 frame, but not tons nicer, just somewhat nicer.
There’s plenty of older bikes that predate Titanium (early 70s, I was racing at the time) and use of finite-elements-analysis. Their biggest innovation was use of good alloy steel (Reynolds 531). One bike I rescued from the trash (Raleigh 3-speed) is surely built from plain steel, and it has a fine ride.
And, additionally, I did say, repaired and maintained, which is not quite the same as designing them.
“Most employees don’t get benefits”… depends on what you mean by benefits (in the UK, this tends to mean _anything_ above the money you’re paid) – I think over here the trade discounts for employees are what keeps a lot of people working in the bike industry.
: P
I think Yehuda is just (again) trying to prove the point that helmets and fluorescent vests are not useful.
…wow
Looks like the Kickstand might need an engineer.
Choo, choo.
-Stinko
I don’t like this kind of comic writing. Nothing really interesting or funny happens for days, no fun… Yeah, the storyline develops, but this is not supposed to be a feature film script or something like that…
Give me back the old Yehuda strip style, where one strip was a story in its own.
It’s called a serial. Ever read Funky Winkerbean? Another Cleveland based strip btw.
Hear, hear for four-panel stories.
longest night in cartoon history. what is this freakin 24? one frame for each minute in the day? this day at teh KS gonna last a year in monitor time? yehuda, joseph and mary, sister sprocket, the shakers and now……. an act o’ god. At least that velo paint devil moved on. which is where I am going…soon. ba-bye.
Whatever.
Stoker – bye bye. Glad to see a moaner go…
Those who enjoy the strip simply ENJOY it. We don’t try to make Rick draw what we want. We love his art and the bike-related stuff he includes. Just because it is a ‘comic’ doesn’t mean it needs to be ‘Dennis the Menace’
Not that I am comparing this strip to Peanuts, but you have to wonder what Charles Schulz would have done with real time feedback. I just added the comments ID “comment_” to adthwart for Chrome. Now I get to enjoy the strip w/o conspiracy theories, Rick bashing and zombies who think this is reality. It’s a comic strip people.
Creakin’ cranks!
I like that.
oh, i wouldnt like that. glad its just the bottom bracket that creaks
Creaking cranks are usually just the nut needing to be tightened, easy fix. I have no idea how to fix a creaky bottom bracket, sounds like you need a new frame…
As you say - ‘a creaky bottom bracket’ may be a cracked frame or just dirt. Strip, clean, lube and rebuild fixes most BB noises.
Yes, it looks like Yehuda reads David Hembrow like a good utility cyclist should. See the penultimate paragraph at:
http://hembrow.blogspot.com/2010/09/10000-km-with-real-green-alternative-to.html
This is one of the most poorly crafted segues I’ve ever read. Really horrible stuff.
So horrible was the segue that I actually clicked the link and read what the Good Utility Cyclist had to say on ‘creaking cranks’.
I am pleased to report back that David Hembrow, like all good utility cyclists, is so woefully ignorant about the mechanical performance of his bicycle that he was flumoxed utterly by the cause of his creaking crank, a heretofore universal omen of a worn or misadjusted bottom bracket.
When one begins to struggle with the complexities involved in differentiating one’s bottom from one’s bottom bracket, it may be time to reassess your career path as a renowned bicycle commentator.
More than anything, I’m genuinely surprised that Kevin Love didn’t take full advantage of Hembrow’s mechanical woes to launch a diatribe against ’boutique bottom brackets’ like Hollowtech and Ultra-torque and make an impassioned defence of the Ashtabula cranks of yesteryear, known for their supple bendy-ness, their asinine installation regimine, and tedious adjustment protocols. However, condemning boutique out-board bottom brackets would mean admitting Hembrow is wrong in specing his utility bicycle, and that’s something Kevin Love would never do.
Being a cheritable soul, I’ll give Kevin Love a convenient seque to safety: Kevin, your Pashley employs a three-piece bottom bracket and crank set-up. There, you’ve got a Pashley reference, now run with it!
“Creakin’ cranks!” <– Sounds like some tripe HiT Entertaiment would use in their Thomas & Friends kiddie show.
-Stinko
GAH! Don’t kill Yehuda before we find out if he smooched Sister Sprocket!!
Smooch nothing, I want to read about some tongue wrestling !
I just threw up in my mouth.
Did it taste good?
“She’s got a tongue like an electric eel, and she likes the taste of a MAN’S tonsils!”
Like the beard, give me something to hang on to.
Greg, Jamie; go visit a porno lust site or something. It’s been too long since either of you have been laid.
-Stinko
Yehuda should have been wearing a helmet.
Don’t forget the hi-viz vest. The tree would have seen that and fallen in another direction.
Hey… I was going to say that.
This whole storm thing cannot be ending in a good way…
I suppose some helmet fundamentalist from A&S is going to say the Kickstand should have been wearing a helmet?
-Stinko
“helmet fundamentalist” : )
great stuff
Anyway, poor Yehuda. Hope he fares better this time than when he got snow-plowed ! ! !
The Wright Brothers were bicycle mechanics.
So are the folks who assemble WAL*MART “bicycles”. What’s your point?
No so Mongo. The real problem that KLove made earlier (god am I really agreeing with him?) is that anyone without training or certification can claim to be a bike mechanic.
You made my point.
“Claim to be” not IS. There is a difference. I agree, there should be some sort of recognized credential, either academic or apprentice-based.
Had a tree smash through my house when I was a kid and it crushed my bed. I’d be upset, but I had just gotten a new bike and that was more important to me at age 11. I went for a ride and enjoyed the day.
I see a “Wizard of Oz” parody brewing here… “Aunti Thistle, Uncle Joe, it’s a twister! It’s a twister!”
Sister Sprocket will play Margaret Hamilton’s role(s).
And Fred as The Wizard! The tinman, lion, and scarecrow can be those three boys (Chunkbait and I can’t remember the other two).
Thistle for Good Witch or I’m walkin’.
This is getting too dramataic for my liking. If something happens to Yehuda or Joe I think I’ll stop reading this strip
Where did this idea of Yehuda losing his arm come from? Did I miss something?
@Isaac:
20090628
Wrong – THAT is set in a fictional Future where roadie Joe is being past by the (ancient) Yehuda. In the present, Yehuda still has both arms.
Yes, but that strip indicates it’s going to happen sooner or later. Every time Yehuda is involved in an accident, we can’t help but wonder if *this* is the one where he loses his arm. Personally, I think it will be a complication (that may not show up for years) from the injury to his arm that he sustained in the snowplow incident.
Thanks… makes sense. I think I may have missed a few months of Yehuda Moon in 2009.
Well, at least Captinstinko chose an appropriate name. I think it is cool that most of us (including Rick!) are secure enough to go on side topics that the strips bring up. Whether we hate or love the current strip, story line, we are all here. Good or bad, there is something that brings us back day after day. For that, I’m grateful.
PS. I missed where Rick abandoned the strip…. I see a man needing a break. I bet my job is a helluva lot easier, and probably pays better, and I take vacations…. not bragging, jus’ saying.
I have less of a problem with the strip, and more problems with the idiots who start cycling-related, political bitchfests in the commentary section.
-Stinko
You are definitely in the wrong forum, sweetcheeks.
On the contrary, everyone else thinks they’re in A&S.
-Stinko
I don’t know about the pay rate of a Bicycle mechanic but from my last tune up, their labor rates are up there with Auto Mechanics and Computer technicians.
You’re being charged a shop rate that covers the cost of tools, labour, maintenance, rent, etc. A mechanic’s pay scale depends largely on their experience, but typically ranges from $10-$15 in Ontario, Canada.
Now I am assuming the the tree fell… but is there a chance it was taken away by the wind? If thats the case add some bikes with anemometer and a cow and you have you self a nice blockbuster.
Wump?
Little chances of that and, anyway, Yehuda is the equivalent of a lightning rod when it comes to getting smacked. :rolleyes:
What about the Kickstand? It’s Yehuda’s home, after all. Look forward to 6 weeks of strips making fun of Yehuda sleeping in a bed full of rainwater.
-Stinko
I hope the kickstands OK.
Forget it.
-Stinko
LEAPIN’ LIZARDS!
We can rebuild him. We have the (Arborium) technology.
With Arborium arms, Yehuda can fly like Superman.
-Stinko
With Arborium, I think he’d be more like Icarus — heading for a fall.
I rarely read these comments. No time. But after perusing today’s fare, I’m considering shutting them down, since I don’t have time to monitor them.
And just to be clear: I welcome all criticism. It’s the criticism of readers that bothers me.
I agree. It is sad, but it seems that these type of forums do need to be monitore, Most of the commentators here are sensitive and perceptive readers who clearly enjoy yhr strip and enjoy commenting in an intelligent, inciteful, or humorous way, but unfortunately it takes only a few mean spirited people to use the forum to attack others. Today is pretty bad, Rick, but I’ve read some very nasty, tasteless, comments that attack loyal and thoughtful readers for a while now. And some of the political commentary is really nasty—based in ignorance and quitw hateful. But these comments usually come from the same three of four commentors. It might be pretty easy to weed them out, though I don’t know how you would do that via computer. I usually scan the comments and read only the ones that provide interesting information on cycling and bicyicles—and there are quite a few good ones. But like evrything else in our culture, the hate-mongers, fear-mongers and other ignorance drenched types need to spit their venom. A shame to give in to them, though, when I’ve seen so much that is positive and informative here as well.
Living free has a price that I’m ready to pay daily.
By shutting the comments down you’ll punish the good and the less good the same. We’re mostly having fun extending, paraphrasing and deviating the strip here, you know. Interesting people and information are 90% of what can be found in the comments. Throw that away for the sake of one or two occasional hyperactive attention seeker, really?
Agreed. But to make sure these few don’t come back, I’d be forced to spend time reading through comments and monitoring feedback; don’t have time to do that. Maybe I’ll try banning them and see if that works.
While it isn’t as bad as eliminating the comments altogether, I’m not fond of places that ban people either. The profanity and sexual references some people use here are highly offensive to me, but I’m glad to say I’ve never used the “Flag” button on any comment, because I believe in everyone having their say, no matter how offensive I find it to be.
I guess some of the comments took me by surprise. I’ll let it sit for awhile, to give others a chance to express their opinion.
I’m a firm believer in an “ignore” button.
That’s much better than banning or moderation, since “ignore” gives each reader the choice of whether to see someone else’s comments or not, but doesn’t affect what anyone else sees. The forum software may not offer that option, though. I’m sure Rick is doing the best he can with whatever options are available in js-kit.
It seems two poster names in particular represent most of the problem. It might be worth doing a log by source IP and shutting them down that way. If they were motivated enough to maneuver around that, a pattern would soon enough develop.
And report them to the IP’s.
JeanM expressed my opinions on this *exactly*.
I’d really hate to see the comments disappear. It takes only a few seconds each day to read the strips but the comments keep me coming back here multiple times per day.
Hear, hear Rick. There’s only one true comment that should follow a comic strip…
…and it’s laughter. Now that’s genuine.
That said, if you are interested in gathering reader feedback data, may I suggest substituting the comments section with a simple “thumbs-up”/”thumbs-down” button for each strip? This would give a good, general idea as to the popularity of various subplots and punch lines.
-Capt’n
Shut down the comments and the very trouble maker wins…
Peoples, sometimes!
Yes, please shut them down. They detract from the strip, and have for quite some time.
You don’t want to read the comments, so rather than just not reading them, your solution is to ask for them to be shut down so that those of us who *do* want to read them won’t be able to do so. Yeah, that seems fair.
Just follow this simple rule: Please don’t feed the Trolls.
Rick- you write great strip (for little or no money) and it’s really a shame some lunkheads have to come on here and try to be the “cool kids”… Don’t stop writing the strip, but if I were you I’d shut the comments down… maybe one of the cool kids can start a thread over at bike forums…
Thanks for doing what you do Rick!
There is a big difference between responsible free expression of ideas and opinions and irresponsible, abusive attacks. I don’t think that a comments page for a bicycle comic should be allowed to deteriorate into serving the latter purpose. Read back over the comments made over th past few weeks (in particuclar the vicious racist attacks on Obama); is this the kind of expression for which the Yehuda Moon staff wishes to provide a sounding board? I think not. So ther is a real problem here.
I don’t recall any mention whatsoever of Obamarx’s race, other than by those of his apologists who threw the race card; said apologists being rhetorically bankrupt.
nice quick editing; who deleted the bile that was here just minutes ago?
“Minutes”? More like seconds. Face it, you are outclassed in every measurable way. You stand no chance against a master rhetorician.
Shock and awe doesn’t HAVE to go “kaboom”.
It is good that you deleted the nasty name calling. Must of scared you, huh?
now go back and edit all your other vile personal attacks and vicious name calling posts, like a good little Pod.
As far as you know
And while we’re talking politics-you brought it up, ranyu, but this goes for you too, Rick-I’m damned if I see what an oil spill in 2010 has to do with a President who served from 1985 to 1983, other than as a purely partisan cheapshot. We’re talking what?-seventeen years, three presidents, almost four and a half terms (the current one only seems like it’s already been eight years). If you want to keep politics out of the forum, either keep it out of the strip or shut down the forum. Makes no difference to me.
*meant 1985 to 1989*
SHUT IT WITH THE POLITICS ALREADY – ALL OF YOU, REGARDLESS OF PARTY PREFERENCE!
-Stinko, Capt’ning around
That ain’t how it works, Stinky. Wish it did.
Screw it. I’m getting a shot and/or a beer and then I’m going to go nighty-night.
Mongo, idiots like you who legitimize (and therefore promote) carrying out heated poltical debates in a comic strip’s comment section ARE the problem to start with.
I can’t recall the last time I ever saw anyone simply state that they “…really enjoyed laughing at today’s strip, Rick!”
-Stinko
Credit where credit is due. I never thought I’d agree with CaptainStinko on anything.
WV, I wouldn’t be in such an all-fired poor mood at the others if it wasn’t for the fact that 90% of these gits have ruined every one of my trips to the comments section of this strip – for the last 3 months. One day of payback time isn’t going to hurt ‘em; and a bit of harmless revenge is a sweet thing.
-Stinko
says the guy who once called him a “jug-eared kenyan”
Tell me how that’s not a good description.
WUMP! crackle ooze, and the Pod cracks open and oozes its toxic oooze.
Someone ‘splain me how that^^^is NOT an “…irresponsible, abusive attack…”?
In Exactly what invasion of the body snatchers were you abducted Mongo? When did you lose your humanity and become a Pod Person extaordinaire? Was it the invasion of the 50s, 80s, or as recent as this past decade? When did the “real” Mongo disappear only to be replaced by a crackling oozing Pod? Crackle ooze oooze.
Is this where Yehuda loses his arm? (See comic of June 28, 2009 at http://www.yehudamoon.com/index.php?date=20090628 )
As I wrote above – It is a look at a possible future where the (old)Yehuda, with only one arm on his VanSweringen, easily catches the speeding roadie, Joe, who has gone so fast he traveled forwards in time (Faster than light does that you know?)
Goodnight Moon.
I really hope this isn’t leading to the end of the strip.
Rick: I’d much rather see ads than lose Yehuda.
Even if the shop is destroyed, I’m sure the shakers could pitch in for a good old fashioned community barn raising.
If Yehuda is hurt, I wonder if Sprocket will find a fixie bakfiets to chaufeur him.