I’m not sure about ‘Merkin law, but in the UK theft is “the intention to permanently deprive ” someone of their goods or “use of” their goods.
taking bikes which are provided as “free for your use” and stopping them being so counts as theft.
@Kim: It’s not that cops don’t see a multi-hued world–it’s that the law often doesn’t have a fine enough point on it to enforce multiple hues. That being said, taking what’s offered freely for public use and selling it privately is certainly theft. We have free public libraries, but you can’t take the books out and sell them!
jad, i beg to differ. too many bike-hating cops will read the words the way they want, and their superiors refuse to force them to do otherwise. it’s institutional inertia, and it’s against bicyclists.
“the man don’t care, and ain’t no one gonna make ‘em.”
as i’ve said time and again, we HAVE the laws; all it takes is backs and balls.
ie, a spine and some fortitude.
In my experience, people working in law enforcement are not any more anti-bicycle than they are anti-apple. In the U.S. bikes and riders are such a small part of the picture they fade into the background.
I beg to differ Kim. Around here plenty of officers ride / race. My son is an officer who patrols on bike almost every afternoon / night.
A while back a bike was stolen when the rider needed an emergency “pit stop” at a conveniece store. The officers shared the tape around when one of them recognized the perp, and the Bianchi was recovered within a half hour.
my son-in-law is a bike cop, and my former brother-in-law was a regular cyclist, too. but i’m giving you my perspective as a guy who winds up being a clearing house and repository of complaints by cyclists about “non-responsive cop situations” AND as an attorney who has dealt with law enforcement AND prosecutors since 1983, and i’m SAYING that such distinctions are institutionally rare, and even more rarely enforced, much less institutionally initiated. okay? y’all can nit-pick and cite rare or personal examples, but i’ve got examples by the hundreds from across the country to the contrary.
now, you want to talk about trying to convince a jury next?
we as a community of cyclists have a LONG way to go before we are welcomed and treated as equals on the streets and roadways, but i’ll die trying, most likely.
@ KIm, “we as a community of cyclists have a LONG way to go before we are welcomed and treated as equals on the streets and roadways, but i’ll die trying, most likely.”
Well if cyclists, all of them, obeyed the traffic laws that would be a huge first step.
Ignorant, selfish, or otherwise, too many of “us” piss of motorists everyday by flaunting the law.
Every time a motorist witnesses a cyclist blowing a stop or red light, riding 3 abreast, not signaling, riding on the wrong side of the road, after dark with now lights & reflectors, and so forth, our credibility and “right to the road” is diminished.
But who’s to define use? You can use one to go from one store to the other, you can take one home with you to keep, so you can use it whenever necessary, or you can use it to supplement your income. Perhaps I’m being a bit dense, but I don’t really understand the purpose of a share-a-bike deal anyway. If I wanted to go downtown to buy something and I didn’t have a car, I’d drive my car to the actual store, not park a mile away to ride a bike the rest of the way. Or maybe I’m missing the point…
unabiker: insert “bicyclist” for “motorist” and vice versa.
is the resultant statement equally applicable?
<<Every time a motorist witnesses a cyclist blowing a stop or red light, riding 3 abreast, not signaling, riding on the wrong side of the road, after dark with now lights & reflectors, and so forth, our credibility and “right to the road” is diminished.>>
i’m not asking for special treatment. but wouldn’t EQUAL treatment be nice?
let’s ban ALL cars, eh? i once saw a car driving without any lights on. and another time, i saw a car whose driver failed to signal–in fact, it happened again just asi was riding home a few moments ago. let’s arrest that woman, and BAN her and all cars from driving; they don’t deserve to be on the road with me.
because NOW i’m really pissed off because she flaunted the law.
Unabiker is using the false arguements that most bike hating motorists use. It’s standard human psychology to blame an outside group for the actions of members of that group, no matter how unrelated.
A cyclist dies riding down a road when a dump truck right hooks him. Who is to blame?
A)Dump truck that failed to yield?
B) Cyclist because 1) some of those cyclists ride without a helmet, 2)they run stop signs you know! 3)didn’t have a headlight in broad daylight, 4)shouldn’t be on the road, 5)wasn’t wearing a safety vest/didn’t have enough blinking lights/wasn’t wearing a Big Bird costume.
If NO cyclist anywhere ever ‘ran’ a stopsign, the anti cyclists would just move on to another bogus complaint about ‘the bunch of them’. It would be about clothing, lights, elitism, being hippies, not paying gas taxes or registration yada yada…
Easy on Unabiker. He’s correct that cyclists running stop signs hurts public opinion of cyclists.
@Scott: He is not making a “false argument.” He’s simply stating the obvious way that public opinion is formed:
While it’s true that the actions of a few may not be representative of the larger group, this (whether we like it or not) is exactly how public opinion is shaped. Is that fair? No. Is Unabiker suggesting that it’s fair? Also no. Are you lumping Unabiker with “bike haters”? I couldn’t tell. He’s not one.
@Kim: Sure, the same could be said of motorists. Of course, since most of the public drives instead of bikes, public opinion continues to be largely shaped by the perception of motorists, not bicyclists. Is that fair? No. Should bicycle advocates care about public opinion? Yes.
Half of drivers who yell at me on my bike also yell at other motorists. At least in that sense, I guess, I feel like I’m being treated equally ;-P
(Please note that nowhere above am I trying to defend the view that cyclists deserve less than equal treatment.)
Yes, cars should be banned from the roads. I saw a car exceeding the speed limit and passing too closely to a law abiding cyclist. If automobile drivers cannot obey the law they do not deserve to be on the road.
It would be much easier for me to justify being anal about stopping at all stop signs, signaling, and the few other laws that I occasionally flaunt if I saw the automobile drivers equally respecting the rules of the road, most especially the ones that affect my safety.
with all due respect, mr b, i am NOT going to go easy on unabiker. his attitude sucks, plain and simple. he can ride and think how he likes, but he’s as bad as the motorists i despise and who might kill me.
it is NOT coorect that cyclists running stop signs hurts public opinion of cyclists. what hurts us is cyclists who don’t demand and take their fair share of the road.
STOP RIDING AND THINKING LIKE NAMBY PAMBIES.
if you really don’t think you belong on the road because of the sins of others, stay off the roads. but stop agreeing with motorists who say the same crap, please?
Even we know that the bikes are in the junk yard, Yehuda system is bound to have bikes disappearing, even if not stolen. Free for you use fails to specify “bring back to this place”. Without being stolen, bikes may have been left elsewhere…
Take the Velib system, it wouldnt work without a multiple pick-up/drop-off locations.
I believe education is a major step towards bike and car harmony. If kids were taught in school the rules of the road as they apply to cars AND bikes, then they would grow up at least some idea how to share the road. I am trying to implement that in my local schools. As a parent and commuting cyclist, I see mistakes on both sides. All of us have a responsibility to each other. Remember what Gandhi said, “You must be the change you wish to see in others.”
Unabiker said: “Ignorant, selfish, or otherwise, too many of “us” piss of motorists everyday by flaunting the law.”
I agree that this occurs, but I offer this. Many of “us” piss off motorists every day just by being there, even if we’re following the law and doing everything “right.”
It is true that cyclists who run stops signs that have traffic (other cars that have to wait for the bicycle which didn’t stop), stop lights under the same conditions, and ride 4 abreast holding up traffic behind them hurt public opinion of cyclists.
Thought I would agree with you that it doesn’t matter if you’re just talking about cyclists who run stop signs where no one is around, or stop lights where no one is trying to go through the intersection. That’s one of those “they’ll just find something else to complain about” things.
Kim, sorry that I’m late to the party, but I do not suck, I have the scars as well as a crippled leg from the last time I was run over by a car. Sadly it is indeed a small number of us that ride responsibly and do demand our legal rights. Yes, public opinion is shaped by any cyclist that breaks the law. Sure, motorists do it to but NOWHERE near the percentage that cyclist do. I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve witnessed a car run a stop sign and still have plenty of digits left. Bikes on the other hand…
Scott, Considering I know and have had the privilege to have raced with Alan Kingsbury and Joceyln Lovell, I think I can agree that there have indeed been incidents where the cyclist was not to blame. Bad drivers exist and so do bad cyclists. I’ll even agree that there will always be a fraction of society that will always rationalize a reason to hate us. You too seem to have an aptitude to rationalize against fellow cyclists that point out the unfortunate truth.
No offense to Kim, but characterizing people who drive cars as “motorists i despise and who might kill me” sounds very much like local attitudes towards Arabs and Muslims. Hard to find common ground when your attitude is that black and white. There are jerks in every segment of society, but to characterize as you have people who drive cars immediate places a wall between you and a great many people.
What I’ve most often noticed about people driving cars, is that NOT ONE of them has ever put his foot to the pavement at at stop sign. As I was told years ago cycling in California, you’ve got to put your foot down, else you’ll get a ticket for not stopping.
I’m wondering if this is the kinda thing that led to Lucas cutting the tops off parking meters so long ago…poor Yehuda.
btw, please don’t delete this post, I am not trying to be incendiary and the previous post which was deleted was merely a good-natured joke.
I’m not sure about ‘Merkin law, but in the UK theft is “the intention to permanently deprive ” someone of their goods or “use of” their goods.
taking bikes which are provided as “free for your use” and stopping them being so counts as theft.
it’s appropriate that cops–who drive black and white cars–are often unable to see the multi-hued world in shades OTHER than black and white.
such fine nuances and subtle distinctions are often terribly elusive little rascals.
@Kim: It’s not that cops don’t see a multi-hued world–it’s that the law often doesn’t have a fine enough point on it to enforce multiple hues. That being said, taking what’s offered freely for public use and selling it privately is certainly theft. We have free public libraries, but you can’t take the books out and sell them!
Why is Yehuda bothering with the desk sergeant? He should have called the bike-friendly detective who has been a customer at the Kickstand.
jad, i beg to differ. too many bike-hating cops will read the words the way they want, and their superiors refuse to force them to do otherwise. it’s institutional inertia, and it’s against bicyclists.
“the man don’t care, and ain’t no one gonna make ‘em.”
as i’ve said time and again, we HAVE the laws; all it takes is backs and balls.
ie, a spine and some fortitude.
In my experience, people working in law enforcement are not any more anti-bicycle than they are anti-apple. In the U.S. bikes and riders are such a small part of the picture they fade into the background.
I beg to differ Kim. Around here plenty of officers ride / race. My son is an officer who patrols on bike almost every afternoon / night.
A while back a bike was stolen when the rider needed an emergency “pit stop” at a conveniece store. The officers shared the tape around when one of them recognized the perp, and the Bianchi was recovered within a half hour.
my son-in-law is a bike cop, and my former brother-in-law was a regular cyclist, too. but i’m giving you my perspective as a guy who winds up being a clearing house and repository of complaints by cyclists about “non-responsive cop situations” AND as an attorney who has dealt with law enforcement AND prosecutors since 1983, and i’m SAYING that such distinctions are institutionally rare, and even more rarely enforced, much less institutionally initiated. okay? y’all can nit-pick and cite rare or personal examples, but i’ve got examples by the hundreds from across the country to the contrary.
now, you want to talk about trying to convince a jury next?
we as a community of cyclists have a LONG way to go before we are welcomed and treated as equals on the streets and roadways, but i’ll die trying, most likely.
@ KIm, “we as a community of cyclists have a LONG way to go before we are welcomed and treated as equals on the streets and roadways, but i’ll die trying, most likely.”
Well if cyclists, all of them, obeyed the traffic laws that would be a huge first step.
Ignorant, selfish, or otherwise, too many of “us” piss of motorists everyday by flaunting the law.
Every time a motorist witnesses a cyclist blowing a stop or red light, riding 3 abreast, not signaling, riding on the wrong side of the road, after dark with now lights & reflectors, and so forth, our credibility and “right to the road” is diminished.
Once again, they are ‘free for the use’ NOT ‘free for the taking’.
But who’s to define use? You can use one to go from one store to the other, you can take one home with you to keep, so you can use it whenever necessary, or you can use it to supplement your income. Perhaps I’m being a bit dense, but I don’t really understand the purpose of a share-a-bike deal anyway. If I wanted to go downtown to buy something and I didn’t have a car, I’d drive my car to the actual store, not park a mile away to ride a bike the rest of the way. Or maybe I’m missing the point…
@heywood
Were you actually able to delete a posted comment? Was it posted on today’s comic?
unabiker: insert “bicyclist” for “motorist” and vice versa.
is the resultant statement equally applicable?
<<Every time a motorist witnesses a cyclist blowing a stop or red light, riding 3 abreast, not signaling, riding on the wrong side of the road, after dark with now lights & reflectors, and so forth, our credibility and “right to the road” is diminished.>>
i’m not asking for special treatment. but wouldn’t EQUAL treatment be nice?
let’s ban ALL cars, eh? i once saw a car driving without any lights on. and another time, i saw a car whose driver failed to signal–in fact, it happened again just asi was riding home a few moments ago. let’s arrest that woman, and BAN her and all cars from driving; they don’t deserve to be on the road with me.
because NOW i’m really pissed off because she flaunted the law.
see?
Unabiker is using the false arguements that most bike hating motorists use. It’s standard human psychology to blame an outside group for the actions of members of that group, no matter how unrelated.
A cyclist dies riding down a road when a dump truck right hooks him. Who is to blame?
A)Dump truck that failed to yield?
B) Cyclist because 1) some of those cyclists ride without a helmet, 2)they run stop signs you know! 3)didn’t have a headlight in broad daylight, 4)shouldn’t be on the road, 5)wasn’t wearing a safety vest/didn’t have enough blinking lights/wasn’t wearing a Big Bird costume.
If NO cyclist anywhere ever ‘ran’ a stopsign, the anti cyclists would just move on to another bogus complaint about ‘the bunch of them’. It would be about clothing, lights, elitism, being hippies, not paying gas taxes or registration yada yada…
Here’s the URL to that news story I posted in yesterday’s comments:
http://www.northjersey.com/bergen/A_good_turn_on_2_wheels.html
Easy on Unabiker. He’s correct that cyclists running stop signs hurts public opinion of cyclists.
@Scott: He is not making a “false argument.” He’s simply stating the obvious way that public opinion is formed:
While it’s true that the actions of a few may not be representative of the larger group, this (whether we like it or not) is exactly how public opinion is shaped. Is that fair? No. Is Unabiker suggesting that it’s fair? Also no. Are you lumping Unabiker with “bike haters”? I couldn’t tell. He’s not one.
@Kim: Sure, the same could be said of motorists. Of course, since most of the public drives instead of bikes, public opinion continues to be largely shaped by the perception of motorists, not bicyclists. Is that fair? No. Should bicycle advocates care about public opinion? Yes.
Half of drivers who yell at me on my bike also yell at other motorists. At least in that sense, I guess, I feel like I’m being treated equally ;-P
(Please note that nowhere above am I trying to defend the view that cyclists deserve less than equal treatment.)
Yes, cars should be banned from the roads. I saw a car exceeding the speed limit and passing too closely to a law abiding cyclist. If automobile drivers cannot obey the law they do not deserve to be on the road.
It would be much easier for me to justify being anal about stopping at all stop signs, signaling, and the few other laws that I occasionally flaunt if I saw the automobile drivers equally respecting the rules of the road, most especially the ones that affect my safety.
with all due respect, mr b, i am NOT going to go easy on unabiker. his attitude sucks, plain and simple. he can ride and think how he likes, but he’s as bad as the motorists i despise and who might kill me.
it is NOT coorect that cyclists running stop signs hurts public opinion of cyclists. what hurts us is cyclists who don’t demand and take their fair share of the road.
STOP RIDING AND THINKING LIKE NAMBY PAMBIES.
if you really don’t think you belong on the road because of the sins of others, stay off the roads. but stop agreeing with motorists who say the same crap, please?
Even we know that the bikes are in the junk yard, Yehuda system is bound to have bikes disappearing, even if not stolen. Free for you use fails to specify “bring back to this place”. Without being stolen, bikes may have been left elsewhere…
Take the Velib system, it wouldnt work without a multiple pick-up/drop-off locations.
I believe education is a major step towards bike and car harmony. If kids were taught in school the rules of the road as they apply to cars AND bikes, then they would grow up at least some idea how to share the road. I am trying to implement that in my local schools. As a parent and commuting cyclist, I see mistakes on both sides. All of us have a responsibility to each other. Remember what Gandhi said, “You must be the change you wish to see in others.”
Unabiker said: “Ignorant, selfish, or otherwise, too many of “us” piss of motorists everyday by flaunting the law.”
I agree that this occurs, but I offer this. Many of “us” piss off motorists every day just by being there, even if we’re following the law and doing everything “right.”
It is true that cyclists who run stops signs that have traffic (other cars that have to wait for the bicycle which didn’t stop), stop lights under the same conditions, and ride 4 abreast holding up traffic behind them hurt public opinion of cyclists.
Thought I would agree with you that it doesn’t matter if you’re just talking about cyclists who run stop signs where no one is around, or stop lights where no one is trying to go through the intersection. That’s one of those “they’ll just find something else to complain about” things.
Kim, sorry that I’m late to the party, but I do not suck, I have the scars as well as a crippled leg from the last time I was run over by a car. Sadly it is indeed a small number of us that ride responsibly and do demand our legal rights. Yes, public opinion is shaped by any cyclist that breaks the law. Sure, motorists do it to but NOWHERE near the percentage that cyclist do. I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve witnessed a car run a stop sign and still have plenty of digits left. Bikes on the other hand…
Scott, Considering I know and have had the privilege to have raced with Alan Kingsbury and Joceyln Lovell, I think I can agree that there have indeed been incidents where the cyclist was not to blame. Bad drivers exist and so do bad cyclists. I’ll even agree that there will always be a fraction of society that will always rationalize a reason to hate us. You too seem to have an aptitude to rationalize against fellow cyclists that point out the unfortunate truth.
No offense to Kim, but characterizing people who drive cars as “motorists i despise and who might kill me” sounds very much like local attitudes towards Arabs and Muslims. Hard to find common ground when your attitude is that black and white. There are jerks in every segment of society, but to characterize as you have people who drive cars immediate places a wall between you and a great many people.
What I’ve most often noticed about people driving cars, is that NOT ONE of them has ever put his foot to the pavement at at stop sign. As I was told years ago cycling in California, you’ve got to put your foot down, else you’ll get a ticket for not stopping.