hey, zoee–read the previous days comments, then shut up with the helmet comments already, okay? if it makes you feel safer, wear your helmet as you read this strip. i feel fairly confident in my reading and laughing skills that i can read and respond without falling off my chair, but if you fear injury, go for it.
I agree, lets leave comments relative to the strip please. Refering to the fact that she isn’t wearing a helmet when we already spent way too much time on that yesterday.
You’re damn right she’s not wearing a helmet. Now get over it and just try and enjoy the comic strip. If you would’ve read back to yesterdays comments you would have seen that the “Helmet debate” has already been thoroughly exhausted.
Piss off troll, you’re ruining the comments for everybody.
Clifton
Especially because that is a long box Bakfiets (www.bakfiets.nl) which has a second seat dividing the middle of the box which would cause little Fizz to have to clamber over the seatback in order to move from front to back. This is one of the reasons that a Bakfiets has straps on the seats to hold the little tykes in.
So where is Rick going with this? We aren’t going to have Thistle tucker out and have buyers remorse are we? I also hope that we wont prove Joe’s Nordic Track comment right and have it sit in her garage next to a new car. My prediction is that Thistle will continue to see the health benefits and also refuse to park the bike because she just shelled out three grand for a 15mph wheelbarrow.
Helmets:
I usually wear one because I have landed on my head one or twice and the luck will only hold so long. I don’t, however, think that they are a magic cure-all for bike accidents as some seem to think I also think that helmet use should be entirely discretionary, including helmets for kids being used at the parent’s discretion.
Uh-oh … the dreaded ‘Second Hill Syndrome.’ I suspect Thistle’s new bakfiets is destined to become a decorative backyard flower planter, or perhaps a jungle gym for Fizz …
Yes, thank you, Todd, for pointing out to me that a rear rack is useful. Kind of like a front rack is also useful. Kind of like having a GIGANTIC bin built into your bike is useful. I was merely pointing out the irony of having a cargo rack on a dedicated cargo bike, when the cargo rack’s capacity is a drop in the bucket compared to the bin (no pun intended) I was not saying that the rack was useless, only ironic. Kind of like a motorhome towing a tent trailer. And I feel sorry for the poor kid that is holding up the weight of the giant dog food (or flour, or whatever) bag in the basket.
When carrying kids the rear rack is VERY useful. I use it for the diaper bag, food, water (for me) and library books or other stuff we are moving around. Stuff up front can tend to bounce around and without a cargo cover is prone to the whims of the weather (and passersby) when left outside.
Micro – why do most cars have glove boxes and cup holders, after all – they do have all that interior space to just toss stuff in?
The rear rack on a bak is not merely a drop in the bucket – the box is rated for 175 or so pounds, the rear rack for another 75. So add some tough bags and you can carry even more stuff – or a kid seat and put the middleschooler back there and the toddler up front…
she needs to sit back on the saddle and stretch her legs out and open her chest. riding a bak (or dutch city bike) is much different than riding a classic road or mountain bike – the geometry of the bak doesn’t reward you for leaning forward and into the hills… sitting back and spinning, extending the legs forward into the pedals as opposed to down works much better.
i need to remind myself of this as i get into ‘go fast bike’ mode on the bak – and its just different – more ‘regal’, sitting upright, taking in the sights and sounds, and working a different group of muscles…
I don’t really see that thing as a “practical bike” unless you’re carrying a LOT of cargo REGULARLY. I suppose in Thistle’s case, it makes sense given the stuff she has to carry but, for most of us, that thing would be serious overkill IMHO.
Sun Tzu wrote that a skilled warrior knows when to fight and when not to fight. You won’t see me hauling home a half dozen 2 X4s, or 10 bags of mulch, or a drillpress. No matter what bike you give me!
Whoa, sorry I didn’t read yesterday’s comments so I had no idea there was a whole debate about helmets. No need to tell me to shut up or call me a troll. Thanks.
Some bakfiets (mainly the ones sold in Holland) ARE single speeds, but most of the ones sold in the states are multi-speed. CleverCycles in Portland O.R sells 8 speed shimano internal hub versions, and the Center for Appropriate Transportation (CAT) in Oregon sells one geared like a mountain bike (this would be MY preference for where *I* live (Marin County, CA = lots of hills!). They aren’t cheap, but they’re a LOT cheaper than a new car and they require no gasoline once you’ve bought them. Aside from wide range gearing, an human/electric hybrid system might be a good alternative to a car in hilly country.. of course, you can add an xtracycle to your standard MTB for quite a bit cheaper, though the set-up is quite different. The baks ride very smooth, even more so with a load. The have a suprisingly short turning radius considering their length, but I’m USED to riding long wheelbase HPV’s…
Quote: “(CAT) in Oregon sells one geared like a mountain bike (this would be MY preference for where *I* live (Marin County, CA = lots of hills!)”
The CAT version is more of a Danish long john and really doesn’t compare to a Bakfiets in terms of kid / family friendly design.
You would be surprised how far 8 speeds will get you. There was a healthy discussion of this on the CleverCycles blog, with charts and graphs. 305% for the Shimano Nexus from low to high is a nice range – and while ‘more’ can sometimes be better – its not always the case. The internal gearing of the bak means full chaincase, no derailer to mess with, and little to no maintenance of the drive train. These are designed for everyday family transport – and they are left in the weather most of the time. Anything that would add maintenance, fidgeting, fussing, and fixing on a regular (annoying) basis would take away from the simplicity of just getting on and going…
Mike, my main issue with the 8spd hub is how the final gearing is usually geared. Every time I leave my home, I’ve got a 22degree grade to descend which is FUN but really taxes the hub brakes on the Azor Oma, especially with boyo in the PeaPod. It ALSO means that I come UP that same hill every time I return home. The boy and bike (as it’s set up now with PeaPod and GIANT wald basket strapped to an Azor Pickup frame mounted front rack) and his lunch box weigh about 126lbs, I’m fluctuating around 190lbs, so the average total is around 320 lbs before I add groceries, etc. The lowest gear (it’s an 8spd shimano internal hub with a 44/22 (the biggest rear cog I could use and still have the full enclosed chain case) is 29.4 gear inches (per Sheldon’s calc) or 2.2 Gain Ratio. Dropping to a 40t in the front drops the low end to 26.4 or 2 Gain Ratio. The problem is, this still isn’t low enough and the top end is now suffering badly. To get the climbing ability I want, I need the low end to be 20 gear inches or 1.5 Gain Ratio. I don’t need it that often, but when I need it, I NEED it. Did I mention I hate pushing heavy bikes up hill on foot? I do it anyway and the boy is big enough I make him get off and walk despite his occasional protests. The problem with this low of a ratio on the low end virtually destroys my higher end gears.
If you’re hills are mild and the gearing is appropriate for the loads you carry, you are absolutely right, the shimano hubs are more than adequate. For me and my cargo bike (a big dummy), I got a Rohloff. Yeah, I know, they’re expensive as hell, but many are they worth it. I only wish I could get an enclosed chain case for a long tail…
So… to sum up, I’d like the Bak more for my personal use if it had the option of a Rohloff and/or an electric motor. HOOO! I said it! “Electric Bike”… now I’ve opened Pandoras box…
Hey Ian,
I’m a big advocate for the electric assist bikes. Because I decided right out of high school to go into the working class and live on my own, a large majority of jobs I had were delivery or onsite customer support so I speant most of my time in the car. Sometimes I had to work 2 jobs to make ends meet and that left little time for excersize. Well, I covered about 170,000 miles in a little over a year and a half, gained about 65 pounds and now that I’m back in school I wanted to get back on the bike and out of the car. Where I live thats difficult due to all the hills in the area because I don’t want to get to work drenched in sweat and the same goes for school. The electric assist opens that door and I get my excersize on the way home. Sure many say I’m “cheating”, but I say whatever gets me back in the saddle works. Even with the motor I only use it on hills so I still get a fair workout on the flats. E-bikes are great for people in my situation or with handicaps.
Also at around $.07 per mile it’s way cheaper than the car. My math could be wrong so it might be cheaper than that.
Oops, sry my math was off there. Been kinda out of it lately. An electric bike costs about $.07 per charge, which is about 1025 miles depending on weight and how fast you go.
Mothers can always find the inner strength to overcome difficulties just in order to please their kids.
No helmet?! Tsk.
And mesh up her hair?
She is going to be thin and trim in no time. Soon after that, she will have quads of steel.
hey, zoee–read the previous days comments, then shut up with the helmet comments already, okay? if it makes you feel safer, wear your helmet as you read this strip. i feel fairly confident in my reading and laughing skills that i can read and respond without falling off my chair, but if you fear injury, go for it.
I agree, lets leave comments relative to the strip please. Refering to the fact that she isn’t wearing a helmet when we already spent way too much time on that yesterday.
Don’t Troll people.
Let’s take it easy about the use of helmets and think about ways to get folks out of cars. That’s the way to alleviate bicycle injuries.
Panel 2: Kid at the back of the box.
Panel 4: Kid at the front of the box.
Geez! That much shifting weight has got to be difficult to keep balanced.
You’re damn right she’s not wearing a helmet. Now get over it and just try and enjoy the comic strip. If you would’ve read back to yesterdays comments you would have seen that the “Helmet debate” has already been thoroughly exhausted.
Piss off troll, you’re ruining the comments for everybody.
Clifton
Especially because that is a long box Bakfiets (www.bakfiets.nl) which has a second seat dividing the middle of the box which would cause little Fizz to have to clamber over the seatback in order to move from front to back. This is one of the reasons that a Bakfiets has straps on the seats to hold the little tykes in.
So where is Rick going with this? We aren’t going to have Thistle tucker out and have buyers remorse are we? I also hope that we wont prove Joe’s Nordic Track comment right and have it sit in her garage next to a new car. My prediction is that Thistle will continue to see the health benefits and also refuse to park the bike because she just shelled out three grand for a 15mph wheelbarrow.
Helmets:
I usually wear one because I have landed on my head one or twice and the luck will only hold so long. I don’t, however, think that they are a magic cure-all for bike accidents as some seem to think I also think that helmet use should be entirely discretionary, including helmets for kids being used at the parent’s discretion.
Uh-oh … the dreaded ‘Second Hill Syndrome.’ I suspect Thistle’s new bakfiets is destined to become a decorative backyard flower planter, or perhaps a jungle gym for Fizz …
“perhaps a jungle gym for Fizz …”
As it already apparently has (a la Clifton’s comment)… is this going to be ‘helmet/safety lesson’ story or something else?
I find it interesting that a bike of this nature comes with a rear cargo rack. Just for fun, let’s also put on on the front wheel
mirco, the rear rack is useful: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cleverchimp/2634332007/sizes/l/
o, and harry, re jungle gym: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cleverchimp/2437036087/
Did anyone else notice she’s not wearing a ring?
are you interested, James Slemboski?
I had never heard of these bikes until this strip, and thought it was interesting when I saw one in this video yesterday:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9067416427722807670&hl=en
=v= Real-life Thistle and Fizz:
http://catoregon.qwestoffice.net/hpm/longhaul4kids.htm
Haha, wow. Bears a striking resemblance!
real life bakfiets use, no helmet, thank you.
and more than 2 hills.
she’ll do fine. first time out is tough. second trip is easier. third and fourth a joy.
http://littlecircles.blogspot.com/2008/04/this-is-how-we-roll.html
******Let’s take it easy about the use of helmets and think about ways to get folks out of cars. That’s the way to alleviate bicycle injuries.********
I’m with Harry.
Yes, thank you, Todd, for pointing out to me that a rear rack is useful. Kind of like a front rack is also useful. Kind of like having a GIGANTIC bin built into your bike is useful. I was merely pointing out the irony of having a cargo rack on a dedicated cargo bike, when the cargo rack’s capacity is a drop in the bucket compared to the bin (no pun intended) I was not saying that the rack was useless, only ironic. Kind of like a motorhome towing a tent trailer. And I feel sorry for the poor kid that is holding up the weight of the giant dog food (or flour, or whatever) bag in the basket.
When carrying kids the rear rack is VERY useful. I use it for the diaper bag, food, water (for me) and library books or other stuff we are moving around. Stuff up front can tend to bounce around and without a cargo cover is prone to the whims of the weather (and passersby) when left outside.
Micro – why do most cars have glove boxes and cup holders, after all – they do have all that interior space to just toss stuff in?
The rear rack on a bak is not merely a drop in the bucket – the box is rated for 175 or so pounds, the rear rack for another 75. So add some tough bags and you can carry even more stuff – or a kid seat and put the middleschooler back there and the toddler up front…
The intense negativity towards a practical bike in these comments is fascinating.
Is it that much of a threat to y’all?
I guess some of us are Yehudas and some of us are Joes….
she needs to sit back on the saddle and stretch her legs out and open her chest. riding a bak (or dutch city bike) is much different than riding a classic road or mountain bike – the geometry of the bak doesn’t reward you for leaning forward and into the hills… sitting back and spinning, extending the legs forward into the pedals as opposed to down works much better.
i need to remind myself of this as i get into ‘go fast bike’ mode on the bak – and its just different – more ‘regal’, sitting upright, taking in the sights and sounds, and working a different group of muscles…
http://littlecircles.blogspot.com/2008/06/climbing-with-bakfiets.html
Re: http://catoregon.qwestoffice.net/hpm/longhaul4kids.htm – that couple in the last picture is really going to need helmets if they keep carrying on like that!
I don’t really see that thing as a “practical bike” unless you’re carrying a LOT of cargo REGULARLY. I suppose in Thistle’s case, it makes sense given the stuff she has to carry but, for most of us, that thing would be serious overkill IMHO.
Sun Tzu wrote that a skilled warrior knows when to fight and when not to fight. You won’t see me hauling home a half dozen 2 X4s, or 10 bags of mulch, or a drillpress. No matter what bike you give me!
JohnB, that is a still photo from the movie “(We aren’t blocking traffic,) We Are Traffic” about the San Franciso Critical Mass ride, especialy the 1997 Police Riot.
http://www.tedwhitegreenlight.com/cm.htm
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=189314458200750949 (50 minutes)
Well shucks. I’m just a little envious of the little girl. It must be fun riding around in that wheelbarrow bucket.
IS the bak gearless?
Whoa, sorry I didn’t read yesterday’s comments so I had no idea there was a whole debate about helmets. No need to tell me to shut up or call me a troll. Thanks.
Some bakfiets (mainly the ones sold in Holland) ARE single speeds, but most of the ones sold in the states are multi-speed. CleverCycles in Portland O.R sells 8 speed shimano internal hub versions, and the Center for Appropriate Transportation (CAT) in Oregon sells one geared like a mountain bike (this would be MY preference for where *I* live (Marin County, CA = lots of hills!). They aren’t cheap, but they’re a LOT cheaper than a new car and they require no gasoline once you’ve bought them. Aside from wide range gearing, an human/electric hybrid system might be a good alternative to a car in hilly country.. of course, you can add an xtracycle to your standard MTB for quite a bit cheaper, though the set-up is quite different. The baks ride very smooth, even more so with a load. The have a suprisingly short turning radius considering their length, but I’m USED to riding long wheelbase HPV’s…
Quote: “(CAT) in Oregon sells one geared like a mountain bike (this would be MY preference for where *I* live (Marin County, CA = lots of hills!)”
The CAT version is more of a Danish long john and really doesn’t compare to a Bakfiets in terms of kid / family friendly design.
You would be surprised how far 8 speeds will get you. There was a healthy discussion of this on the CleverCycles blog, with charts and graphs. 305% for the Shimano Nexus from low to high is a nice range – and while ‘more’ can sometimes be better – its not always the case. The internal gearing of the bak means full chaincase, no derailer to mess with, and little to no maintenance of the drive train. These are designed for everyday family transport – and they are left in the weather most of the time. Anything that would add maintenance, fidgeting, fussing, and fixing on a regular (annoying) basis would take away from the simplicity of just getting on and going…
Mike, my main issue with the 8spd hub is how the final gearing is usually geared. Every time I leave my home, I’ve got a 22degree grade to descend which is FUN but really taxes the hub brakes on the Azor Oma, especially with boyo in the PeaPod. It ALSO means that I come UP that same hill every time I return home. The boy and bike (as it’s set up now with PeaPod and GIANT wald basket strapped to an Azor Pickup frame mounted front rack) and his lunch box weigh about 126lbs, I’m fluctuating around 190lbs, so the average total is around 320 lbs before I add groceries, etc. The lowest gear (it’s an 8spd shimano internal hub with a 44/22 (the biggest rear cog I could use and still have the full enclosed chain case) is 29.4 gear inches (per Sheldon’s calc) or 2.2 Gain Ratio. Dropping to a 40t in the front drops the low end to 26.4 or 2 Gain Ratio. The problem is, this still isn’t low enough and the top end is now suffering badly. To get the climbing ability I want, I need the low end to be 20 gear inches or 1.5 Gain Ratio. I don’t need it that often, but when I need it, I NEED it. Did I mention I hate pushing heavy bikes up hill on foot? I do it anyway and the boy is big enough I make him get off and walk despite his occasional protests. The problem with this low of a ratio on the low end virtually destroys my higher end gears.
If you’re hills are mild and the gearing is appropriate for the loads you carry, you are absolutely right, the shimano hubs are more than adequate. For me and my cargo bike (a big dummy), I got a Rohloff. Yeah, I know, they’re expensive as hell, but many are they worth it. I only wish I could get an enclosed chain case for a long tail…
So… to sum up, I’d like the Bak more for my personal use if it had the option of a Rohloff and/or an electric motor. HOOO! I said it! “Electric Bike”… now I’ve opened Pandoras box…
Hey Ian,
I’m a big advocate for the electric assist bikes. Because I decided right out of high school to go into the working class and live on my own, a large majority of jobs I had were delivery or onsite customer support so I speant most of my time in the car. Sometimes I had to work 2 jobs to make ends meet and that left little time for excersize. Well, I covered about 170,000 miles in a little over a year and a half, gained about 65 pounds and now that I’m back in school I wanted to get back on the bike and out of the car. Where I live thats difficult due to all the hills in the area because I don’t want to get to work drenched in sweat and the same goes for school. The electric assist opens that door and I get my excersize on the way home. Sure many say I’m “cheating”, but I say whatever gets me back in the saddle works. Even with the motor I only use it on hills so I still get a fair workout on the flats. E-bikes are great for people in my situation or with handicaps.
Also at around $.07 per mile it’s way cheaper than the car. My math could be wrong so it might be cheaper than that.
Oops, sry my math was off there. Been kinda out of it lately. An electric bike costs about $.07 per charge, which is about 1025 miles depending on weight and how fast you go.
The BAK is fine for the Netherlands, which are as flat as a pancake, but many cities in the US have hills.